Painbringer/Devastator Combo

Does the Painbringer bonus apply to the critical damage element of Devastators, or only to the bonus damage? Thanks

 

you need to use full painbringer or full devastators or full any cannon to get the real benefit from what i understand, if you mix then the benefits are reduced on percentages

 

I believe killcrazy is correct. You can use the following calculator to fine tune you cannons:

Which Cannons To Use

let me know if this helps.

Tex

 

Not really. I have read his and ARky's damage analyses, which differ in significant respects. Also, given the reload advantages of painbringers, i would think most mix.

But the question is whether the "bonus" element of painbringers applies not only to the bonus damage (e.g., 150 doom 5's, 95 dev 4's) but in the case of devastators ALSO to the critical his damage?

 

Ahoy,

No, the Elite ammunition bonus only applies to the Elite Ammunition bonus stat on both cannons, Critical Damage is not effected. The more painbringers you have equipped the more the percentage increase is applied to cannons which have this stat.

Should you have any other queries about the workings of the damage calculation you are unsure of, or the differences between the two players opinions, you are welcome to ask and I shall endeavour to provide you with the correct answer.

Swift

 

The bonus damage % as I understand from painbringers DOES affect the bonus damage of other cannons, the +50, +60, +70 DOES NOT add onto other cannons however, the ideal combo of cannons is somewhere in the middle but this varies on your specific setup, message your setup and I'll run a calc for you

 

So, with a hypothetical set up of one (1) level 0 painbringer (50% bonus) and:

one level 0 painbringer = 50 bonus ammo each plus 50% (of 50) bonus ammo for each cannon for 75 each bonus or total of 150 bonus for the two, or 75 average per cannon bonus;

one level 5 doomhammer = 50 plus .25 x 50 =12.5 on painbringer (total 60.5), for doomhammer 150 plus .25 x 150 (187.5,) and a total bonus for both of 248, and average of 124 per cannon bonus damage ;

one level 4 devastator (not counting crit states) = 50 plus .25 x 50 =12.5 on painbringer (total 60.5), for devastator 95 plus .25 x 95 (118.75) , for a total bonus for both of 179.25, = ~ 90 bonus damage each cannon ( plus extra 33% critical hit percent and 98 crit damage (32.34)), and average of 105.8 per cannon;

But, if the painbringer bonus applies to the critical damage, then for Dev 4 you get 95, plus .25 x 95 painbringer bonus (23.75), plus .33 x 98 extra crit damage (32.34), plus .25 x 98 x .33 painbringer extra crit damage bonus (8.09).

So, Doom 5 gets 150 plus 37,5 bonus = 187.5 bonus damage (over base damage)

Devastator 4 gets 151.09 or 159.18 bonus and extra crit damage (depending on whether painbringer bonus applies to critical damage.

Note, if painbringer bonus also applies to crit %, the Devastator stats go up even more, and if that is the case, applying the higher level painbringer bonuses (e.g., 90% at lvl 4) not only to the bonus damage 95 dev 4 v 150 doom 5 but also to the critical damage and critical % of the devastators would make the devastators the choice.

Doom 5 plus Pain 4: 150 plus (.45 x 150) 67 = Doom 5 bonus of 217;

Dev 4 plus Pain 4: 95 plus (.45 x 95) 42.75, plus 32.34 crit bonus (.33 x 98) 32.34, plus (?) painbringer crit bonus (98 + .45 x 98=142.1) x (.33 + .33 x .45 = .4785) = extra 68, or Dev 4 bonus (from painbringer bonus to both bonus and crits, plus crits) of 238.

Conclusion, if painbringer bonus applies to crit damage and crit damage percentage of devastator 4s, the these hit harder then doom 5 when coupled with pain 4s.

So, it's a valid question.

This is all beyond base damage (which depends on type of ammo) and numerous other factors such as castles and skills.

Thank heavens I was a Poli Sci major

 

Pfft, question answered as I was ruminating the above. Time to jettison the devastators maybe.

So the effect of painbringers is to significantly accentuate the heretofor slight difference between Devs and Dooms of the same level.

Doom 4 has 135 bonus.

Dev 4 has 95 plus 32.34, or 127.34, but shoots a bit faster

Thank you everyone

 

The bonus does not apply to crit damage, nor does crit damage stack off normal bonus damage.

 

You are better using Dooms along with pains instead of devs as dooms will benefit more, as I say i can run the numbers and find the ideal ratio for your setup if you post your setup and available cannons

 

Ahoy,

Some slight confusion in your workings there my friend, let me try to break it down.

2 Painbringers Level 0:
(Painbringer Elite Ammo Bonus + Painbringer Elite Ammo Bonus) * ((Painbringer Elite Ammo Bonus % + Painbringer Elite Ammo Bonus %) / Cannon Amount)
(50 Elite Ammo Bonus + 50 Elite Ammo Bonus) * ((50% Elite Ammo Bonus % + 50% Elite Ammo Bonus %) / 2)
100 Elite Ammo Bonus * ((100% Elite Ammo Bonus %) / 2)
100 Elite Ammo Bonus * 50% = 150 Elite Ammo Bonus Total

1 Painbringer Level 0 and 1 Doomhammer Level 5:
(Painbringer Elite Ammo Bonus + Doomhammer Elite Ammo Bonus) * ((Painbringer Elite Ammo Bonus % + Doomhammer Elite Ammo Bonus %) / Cannon Amount)
(50 Elite Ammo Bonus + 150 Elite Ammo Bonus) * ((50% Elite Ammo Bonus % + 0% Elite Ammo Bonus %) / 2)
200 Elite Ammo Bonus * ((50% Elite Ammo Bonus %) / 2)
200 Elite Ammo Bonus * 25% = 250 Elite Ammo Bonus Total

1 Painbringer Level 0 and 1 Devastator Level 4:
(Painbringer Elite Ammo Bonus + Devastator Elite Ammo Bonus) * ((Painbringer Elite Ammo Bonus % + Devastator Elite Ammo Bonus %) / Cannon Amount)
(50 Elite Ammo Bonus + 95 Elite Ammo Bonus) * ((50% Elite Ammo Bonus % + 0% Elite Ammo Bonus %) / 2)
145 Elite Ammo Bonus * ((50% Elite Ammo Bonus %) / 2)
145 Elite Ammo Bonus * 25% = 181.25 Elite Ammo Bonus Total

However, the same happens when calculating Critical Damage and Critical Chance, they are also averaged, along with Reload, Range, Occult Damage and Hit Probability.

1 Painbringer Level 0 and 1 Devastator Level 4:
(Painbringer Critical Chance % + Devastator Critical Chance %) / Cannon Amount
(20% Critical Chance % + 33% Critical Chance %) / 2
53% Critical Chance % / 2 = 26.5% Critical Chance % Total

(Painbringer Critical Damage % + Devastator Damage Chance %) / Cannon Amount
(20% Critical Damage % + 98% Critical Damage %) / 2
118% Critical Damage % / 2 = 59% Critical Damage % Total

To compare cannons it is not as simple as just comparing one value over another, the ammunition damage plays a vital roll - the higher the ammunition damage the better Critical Damage will be. Reload time is a huge factor in cannons.

In my personal opinion, if a cannon is better than another, mixing it with a different cannon does not make the combination better, but infact worse. If you are able to use a full set of the best cannon for your playstyle, then do that.

As this has turned more into a discussion, which I have no doubt will continue, or other players will want to voice their opinions on, I shall move this thread to the New Pirates Tutorials section of the forum.

Swift

 

While this has some truth, the combo of dooms + pains is a real thing and there is an ideal middleground you won't see by just comparing using 2 cannons. I've used a solver addon in my spreadsheet to optimise damage and it spits out a combo of the 2 in an ideal setup, never just one. This is because the pain has a direct impact on other cannons as opposed to just averaging out.

For example:

399 Dooms Lv5

1 pain Lv2: (70 bonus damage + 399(1/400*150*70%) = 175 bonus damage

The bonus damage here is larger than a doom so pains are better right? no

400 Pain Lv2: (70 bonus damage + (70*70%) = 119 bonus damage

So dooms are better? no

There is a middle ground

 

Hey,

Your math is a bit wrong working out the 399 Dooms and 1 Painbringer bonus damage, remember the % increase is 0.175%, there is no way you can gain 25 damage from that
(70 + 150*399)*(1 + (0.7/400))/400 = 150.06215 per cannon

What you are not including in your comparison above is reload time.

A Doomhammer 5 has 3.4394s reload, 150 bonus damage.
150/3.4394 = 43.612258 per second

A Painbringer 2 has 2.6092s reload, 119 bonus damage.
119/2.6092 = 45.6078491 per second

Therefore, the Painbringer 2 does more damage per second than the doomhammer in terms of Elite ammunition bonus. A combination will make the shot damage harder yes, but will lower the damage per second - which is what counts the most in fights.

The other stats of Painbringer Level 2 and Doomhammer Level 5 are exactly the same
Painbringer Level 2:
Reload: 6.8 (Avg of Cannons)
Hit Probability: 75% (Avg of Cannons)
Range: 30 (Avg of Cannons)
Elite Damage: 70% (Avg of Cannons)
Critical Hit Probability: 20% (Avg of Cannons)
Critical Damage: 20% (Avg of Cannons)
Additional with Ammo Type: Elite

Elite Damage: 70
Elite Points: 1​

Doomhammer Level 5:
Reload: 8.2 (Avg of Cannons)
Hit Probability: 75% (Avg of Cannons)
Range: 30 (Avg of Cannons)
Critical Hit Probability: 20% (Avg of Cannons)
Critical Damage: 20% (Avg of Cannons)
Additional with Ammo Type: Elite

Elite Damage: 150
Elite Points: 1
​

Now that means that there is no other benefit of the Doomhammers compared to the Painbringers. Critical bonuses will be the same per shot, damage from ammo, dot, occult etc will all be the same. The only difference will be the reload time, where as the Painbringers are faster than the doomhammers, it will again mean more damage per second.

As an example lets take Confetti ammo with no other bonuses to increase its damage (any bonuses would further increase the DPS in the painbringers favour)

Confetti Ammunition
Base Ball Damage: 90
Elite Points: 200%
Battle Point: 3
Ammo Type: Elite

A Doomhammer 5 has 3.4394s reload, 90 Base Ball Damage.
90/3.4394 = 26.1673648 per second from the Ball Damage

A Painbringer 2 has 2.6092s reload, 90 Base Ball Damage.
90/2.6092 = 34.4933313 per second from the Ball Damage

Add them together you have:
Doom 5: 69.7796228 per second (elite ammo + base ball)
Pain 2: 80.1011804 per second (elite ammo + base ball)

Painbringers Level 3 will have 144 damage bonus per shot, meaning their damage will be just lower than that of Doomhammers 5 per shot, but vastly outclass them in damage per second.
Painbringers Level 4 will have 171 damage bonus per shot, meaning they will hit harder than doomhammers 5 per shot, and outclass them even more in damage per second.

There is no combination of Painbringers and Doomhammers that will provide better damage per second than full Painbringers Level 2 or higher.

-Arky

 

This is all great info. having returned a few months ago after a 5 1/2 year hiatus, i am playing catch up and cannot yet fill all slots with level 2 or greater painbringers, or even those and level 5 doomhammers. I must add to those some combo of level 1 painbringers, level 4 doomhamers and/or level 1 painbringers.

As I grasp the calculations, does that make a level 1 painbringer roughly equal to a level 5 doomhammer in damage per minute, and if so, should i jettison all the level 4 dooms and level 4 devastators?

The countervailing point would be that even if you shoot slower with the dooms, your shots are bigger and you save ammo in the raid and on other npcs.

 

edit - ... and/or level 4 devastators

 

Do not just get rid of the dooms/devs. It's never a good idea to just toss premium pearl cannons

Tex

 

I would like to respectfully disagree, yes with higher level pains than currently available they will straight outclass dooms and yes in DPS the balance is pretty heavily weighted towards pains, but as I have discussed in my few big posts, damage per hit is useful in shooting events as it is still more efficient per cannonball.

I am also very aware that better cballs tilt the balance in favour of crits(devs) which is why I'll try to never give a blanket 'this is better than this' unless it's true in ALL cases. Devs, Pains, Dooms and Firestorm all have their place in current gameplay which each trading blows depending on what you're looking for

My maths does in fact account for the very small percentage, what you must consider is this percentage applies to ALL cannons on board, so even a small percent can mean a lot of damage. As in 0.175% of 150x399(59850) is 104 damage on top of the 70 base you get on Pain Lv2 making the pain better than it ordinarily would be. If it's not already clear, pains buff ALL cannons on board, not just themselves.

I really don't mean to undermine you ARKY I've just done a chunk of playing around and digging to find out the mechanics of the pains and I do believe there IS a middle ground, for both DPS and straight max hit, I've found that you can't compare base stats with these cannons and I hope you can see why too.

Dozza

 

Hey,

I don't feel undermined at all mate. Everything you have stated, in terms of the workings was already included in my workings, you have to understand I have been looking at this for many years myself

Damage per shot is useful when shooting Events you are correct if you are looking for profit per shot, you may make more if you are inflicting more damage over the life of the event ship however; although you arent making as much profit per cannonball, you might make an overall more profit because your reward is higher. Of course, fighting, rankings, and speed of completing tasks are all favoured by DPS.

The following calculation I posted:

(70 + 150*399)*(1 + (0.7/400))/400 = 150.06215 per cannon​

That was an average per cannon, meaning it includes the buff being applied to both doomhammers and painbringers. The painbringer goes from 70 Damage to 70.1225 Damage, any doomhammer goes from 150 Damage to 150.2625, resulting in an average per cannon of 150.06215. So as you say, the buff adds a total of 104.7375 for the doomhammers per shot, not per cannon, and 0.1225 for the painbringer per shot, resulting in a total damage added of 104.86 per shot being a result of the 70% bonus provided from the Painbringer due to it being averaged to only 0.175% increase.

-Arky

 

All good, but for those of us with some lower level cannons, is a painbringer 1 better than a devastator 4, or is it best to run a mix of those. These all seem to be close.

For example, say i have 400 cannon slots and more than 200 each of painbringer 1s, doomhammer 5s and devastators 4s, is my best mix (using higher level fighting ammo of 90 or above): 200 painbringer 1s, and 100 each of the dooms and devs?

 

Okay okay let do a few little calculations, just so I can get this clear in my head, you have me doubting myself here haha

Gonna use 400 cannons and confetti(90hp) ammo as it's a nice round number and fairly representative of a high end set up.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

400 Doom Lv5:

(400*90)+(400*150) = 96,000 Damage

96,000 /8.2 = 11,707 DPS


400 Pain Lv2:

(400*90) +(400*(1+1*0.7)) = 83,600 Damage

83,600/6.8 = 12,294 DPS

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

399 Doom Lv5, 1 Pain Lv2:

(400*90) + (1+1/400*0.7)*(399*150+70) = 96,027 Damage +27 (vs full Dooms)

96,027/8.1965 = 11,716 DPS +9 DPS (vs full Dooms)


399 Pain Lv2, 1 Doom Lv5:

(400*90) + (1+399/400*0.7)*(399*70+150) = 83,687 Damage +87 Damage (vs full Pains)

83,686/6.8035 = 12,301 DPS +7 DPS (vs full Pains)

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I've rounded to nearest whole Damage point and tried to use the same math format so it's easy to read/understand.


Unless my above maths is incorrect, weather you're adding pains to dooms or dooms to pains, both Damage and DPS increase so the ideal setup MUST be somewhere in the middle, do correct me if I'm wrong